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Joey Chernov

Pics for Virtual Reconstruction

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HI, I'm helping rebuild the 1939 Worlds fair on a platform called Reaction Grid. I believe Paul M Van Dort has a few posts here regarding the same thing. Were going to do an exhibit on the planning, design, construction, and demolition of the greatest Fair in history.I'm looking for construction photos of the Theme Centre, Westinghouse, the Federal Building, and any other locations that are available. Also looking for aerial shots of the fair, night views, and demolition pics. And images of the "park" between the two fairs would be superb too! Thanks for the help!!

I'll try to post some pics of the buildings we have done already, or, just check out Reaction Grid and the fair for yourself by going to http://www.pmphoto.to/worlds_fair/WF_ReactionGrid/index.htm

and clicking on the Reaction Grid tab.

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Hi,

Please pardon any spelling errors - have not been sleeping well - no more than brief spurts every two days or so in weeks/months. Also, MARK - this site is behaving strangley - adding charcters, usualy this,"/" , in dozen and dozens of places on its own and doubling and tripleling posts/characters and corrupting sentences with gibberish :o Mark??)

I have medium format slides of the entire fair under construction as well as thousands of photographs from swamp up and a few hundred color slides as well as dozens of this very Tower and I wanted to contribute with Paul a while back as my time permitted, but I simply can't as quite honestly there were way too many large errors to correct, which suggest a lack of knowledge, interest and dilligence on your part, and I am swamped with no free time an I am starting another non-Fair book. But you do have my good wishes for success, and a lot of suggestions and comments which will follow.

I will point out that your Westinghouse Tower is of the wrong basic proportions and the colors (the night colors were achieved with light (perhaps internally lit) and the small jets on either side of the Tower were lit with capillary action or something like fibre optics - light caught in water - the colors often seen at night in 1939 on the Tower were a turquoise/blueish green with deep red rings and light pink water jets rising on either side (yes, in 1939 - these can be seen in in the close up in the Gotto collection photo looking towards the rear of the building with a close up detail of the Tower on the right, only the jets are white and lower in daytime in that 1940 slide). Alternatively, a specific hot pink tower Tower with yellow rings was used, perhaps mostly as dusk. Lovely against a a teal dusk summer sky, with brilliant golden yellow emanating from under the stairs and landings on both sides for both night schemes. In daytime, the building was basically white with some blue and red trim with a greyish/silver Tower with red verical details - you have a hot neon pink Tower with yellow rings of the wrong hues in daytime - colors used only at dusk or night from what I have seen.

The words "Westinghouse"on both sides were blood red in 1939 at night. The (W)'s and logo's ("Westinghouse the last word in Electronics" or whatever it was) were also brilliant deep red in 1939 at night but I see you have not added those yet. There were aslo two spotlights from behind at night rising and crossing over the pavilion. Anyway, much is quite innacurate. You have incorrect night colors in day - it should be a silver/grey metal tower as seen in the LOC images with deep vermillion red portions on the vertical "Buck Rogers" ring supports which were a white/silver - quiet color in daytime. I add a Corbis photo, the same one I showed Paul actually, to furnish a rough idea, but do allow for the upward angle. Your tower itself seems way too high in relation to the rings, rising well beyond the largest ring up top (actually it appears the rings need to be enlarged in height and the staggered spaces between them increased with the largest space between the top two and the top ring quite close to the end of the Tower - the Tower seems to be about the right height when viewed in conjunction with the tops of the halls, although the halls themselves seem too wide and the windows too small).

The NCR, which I supplied the correct silver color slide for after Paul had it red, and then white, is also way off in proportions and width I believe in one image showing it from the side and your NCR register is missing two rather obvious elements.

The T&P has some severe structural problems as you have it shown. You must be aware of the Gottscho-Schleisner collection at the LOC? I believe they are public domain for goodness sakes. Some have been "restored", some not but the colors are usually wrong, too strong and for most images just inaccurate - but you can weed your way through if you know what you are looking at and for. There is so much available on this structure online it is not funny. Full Color as well as b/w. Beware of many "corrected" slides here and there as they are ofen wrong as well.

Weren't you contacting Westinghouse? Did they not have what you wanted?

http://pro.corbis.com/search/Enlargement.a...0C4D88641AFB%7D

Gotto-SchliesnerLOC

Best,

Eric

PS - Not trying to be discouraging but this fair is about color and design and I know you value accuracy. It takes a lot of work and money - the books and other published media are often to blame as the images they contain only perpetuate misinformation. :( I am afraid, with good reason, this virtual experince will do the same. :(

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Mark - the edit button is missing now and things are getting doubled and added out of nowhere like my last link above - what is going on?

MB

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Also Mark,

posts are way too wide as never before - things added & doubled - did the best I could but now with no edit feature I can do no further corrections from all the added "\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" and such that I did not add of course. I got rid of those but links are screwing themselves up, tripling and much more. :( REALLY annoying.

E

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Just to add to the fun, I've been seeing a blank white background since Fri morning. No corrupted text or characters though, as magikbilly reported. I'm viewing on a Macbook over a Bluetooth TMobile DUN. I PM'd Marc.

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Same with the white background. I thought it was me at first since no one else was saying anything. I've written to Marc so keep the fingers crossed.

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OK. I found out part of what was going on. Something happened to the board settings for what are called "skins", which controls the layout, colors, etc. The normal skin that Marc has been using seems to have gotten corrupted or changed somehow. I ran the tool to rebuild its cache but that didn't help. I then picked one of the standard skins, and it seems to be working ok. Things may look a bit different but at least everything appears to be formatted properly, etc. I'll keep the fingers crossed and leave things set like they are until Marc can get back online and see what happened to the skin he had in place. Please let me know if you continue to experience any difficulties.

Bill

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Hi Joey,

This is just a small example of what I meant. Paul wrote here a while back - "...we will try to make the exteriors as accurate as we can..." The site states that " The Singing Tower is complete,..." yet your recreated Westinghouse Tower, incorrect colors aside, is totally out of proportion to the real thing, giving a completely different feel to the structure. The site states that you have to work within certain confines and I understand that, but it also states "...as much detail as possible." - do these recreations have to be this far off? I am not getting into the incorrect number of "steps" on the Tower, but the basic proportions are obviously wrong, and it is not a matter of perspective - the rings are clearly much closer to the top of the Tower on the real thing. This is a discrepancy of perhaps 18 feet or so! In what I assume is an effort to suggest dimensionality, your "white" spaces on the two great halls are much larger than they should be. Having looked at the site again, I see many images taken from the Gotto-Schliesner Collection so I know you must have looked at the images there of the Westinghouse Electric and Manufacturing Corporation including the b/w documentary images and the color slides, so why the differences in design and incorrect colors? Is this Tower representative of the recreations you will carry out for the other buildings? I and the other 1939 collectors/researchers here take the proper research and representation of this Fair very seriously. This Tower, and the many other errors and omissions, do not indicate a thorough examination of the available data and this approach, along with the lack of credit for all the data and corrections previously supplied by me and others here, will certainly discourage assistance from those who are in a position to give it.

I know Paul said the T&P needs serious work, which it does, as it is an older rendering (the Observation Bridge did not touch the water midway between T&P and from I can see the T&P are too far apart and of really wrong proportions - the Perisphere is way to small). These are not meaningless details; in the "Arrival Area" image, you show a T&P with a flat side of the Trylon facing the Perisphere when it should be a corner. This error appears in the very logo for your project. The page in the "Tour" still has the bit about the fountains under the Perisphere backwards, even though I explained to Paul the fountains were not raised but lowered as the water was found to be "eating away" the finish on the underside of the Perisphere early on - just like the water spray deteriorating the Four Moods. The original effect was intended to impart a weightless floating effect complete with the appearance of the Perisphere rotating on these jets accomplished with gently moving Westinghouse glass slides of blue cloud images projected seamlessly from the nearby buildings. The diameter of the Perisphere itself is incorrect! And highly detailed original blueprints are available right here courtesy of Mr. John Pender! In "Sculpture", "Carriers of Speed" is wrongly identified (that is not the accepted correct title for this sculpture - I am unaware of another title) and the artist is not mentioned although his name is clearly in any hardcover guidebook and the title on many postcards. As much text on the site comes directly from guidebooks I don't see how you missed his name of the title. The same sculpture is said, in "Transportation" to be "in front of the Maritime Building", but it was actually at the intersection of the Avenue of Transportation and the Court of Ships - if it was "in front of anything" it would be Aviation or Firestone. It was in fact some 375-400 feet or so from the Maritime Building - hardly "in front." The sculpture “Europa” is shown three times and unidentified. The site is replete with omissions and errors like these - "Pertlon Circle," "Steinetz Hall' and so on. The recreated virtual NCR register is missing at least two rather obvious elements as mentioned. These things are important.

Paul's statement "I make sure to acknowledge everyone who has made a contribution." is not quite truthful, is it? I made many, many suggestions, rewrote captions, identified several totally mislabeled photographs including the extremely obvious and inexplicably unidentified Closing Night photograph which somehow was unrecognized, corrected captions including the Exterior of DuPont which was actually labeled as a GE interior. I provided some color slides, posted here, of the 1939 incarnation of NCR for color reference which obviously were used and I posted even more color images from my collections - others here also shared their knowledge and their own websites - yet there is no mention of any of these contributors on the Acknowledgments" page which has not been updated for 7 years. What impression does this give?

"As far as credit for help in the VW. We'll come up with something so that all who help receive credit. We really haven't even concerned ourselves with that yet." - Paul. Maybe you should.

To recreate these buildings in an attempt to pass on the Fair (an admirable goal) one must respect the original designs because they are rich with subtle meanings that were deliberately woven with shapes and light, and the interaction of the two properties create a third which is the magic, the meaning and the content, which is vital. Things which might seem insignificant are not. There is a reason the Astronomer by Milles is looking north for example. In the "Inside About the Fair" section the Helicline is higher than the Observation Bridge when it must be the same height at the maximum. Is this one of those necessary changes due to the "certain confines" you have to work within - or just a mistake?

While I certainly applaud the effort to keep the Fair alive, more careful research and observation is clearly needed. If too much is lost in "translation," or some through some kind of compromise with day and night lighting to make it more colorful (even though it is a daytime site), or by error, you are no longer preserving accurate memories and history but creating something else along the lines of a video game in appearance. And choices, or errors, like the major ones mentioned above will drive away those who could offer you true help and do not help you be taken seriously.

westinghouseCOMPARISON.jpg

Respectfully,

MB

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Hi All

Happy Holidays.

As some of you know I am dealing lately with a full plate - I rewrote my last two posts in this thread as they were not clear enough and contained a few errors with regard to colors etc. I've been working with ocean liners for too long and I am getting a litle "rusty" ;) I did the best I could to express myself and the color combinations of the EWestinghouse Building correctly.

Anyway, if you read these posts yesterday - please them read again as they are quite different and much more direct. My basic position is unchanged though - these renderings are simply incorrect IMHO. My hat off though to those making the effort, but I urge that more research...and more still, be done so you might be taken seriously. By getting such basic information wrong you are giving the impression you don't care enough about the details to carry out even basic research which is unforgivable and will relegate your project to a novelty at best.

Best wishes for a fine day to all,

Eric MB

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I and the other 1939 collectors/researchers here take the proper research and representation of this Fair very seriously. This Tower, and the many other errors and omissions, do not indicate a thorough examination of the available data and this approach, along with the lack of credit for all the data and corrections previously supplied by me and others here, will discourage assistance from those who are in a position to give it.

I concur MB.

In this day & age research is paramount, with greater resources available now than at any other time in history, the lack of research is, frankly, unforgivable.

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"and demolition of the greatest Fair in history."

Am I reading this correctly? One of your focal points is demolition? Really? :blink:

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"I concur MB.

In this day & age research is paramount, with greater resources available now than at any other time in history, the lack of research is, frankly, unforgivable."

Hi M,

Indeed. The more I look at the images and information provided at that site the more I find objectionable.

The width of the base of the Trylon and the number and/or placement of the grass/paved segments that surround the Theme Center are just wrong. As you know the base of the Trylon did not touch the outer ring of pavement surrounding the Theme Center as there was the entrance to the Perisphere and its canopy "within' the outer circle of pavement. In the simulation, the Trylon fills the whole plotted segment - this is one of the reasons the structure does not look correct or as graceful as intended by H&F. As I had observed earlier (and now I know why it looks so), the base of the Trylon is too wide. In the "About the Inside of the Fair" rendering, in "Current Photos," the Helicline is exactly 1/3 the width of the Trylon which is much too large (the Helicline was 18 feet wide in reality) and it is shown centered on the side of the Trylon when in reality it was far right of center. I see that the T&P are listed as 90% complete! The Singing Tower is listed as completed!

There is also no mention of the Focal Exhibits I could find in the Tour - such as at Chrysler Motors where three exhibits are described - none of which is the Rocket Transport. How can they dicuss the "design and planning" and leave out the Focal Exhibits? These Focal Exhibits were paramount in 1939 and the culmination of the design of the Zones.

I was also shocked to see what is listed in the Reference Books and Materials! No QM Catalog, no Chwast/Heller and Cohen, but 2 Railroads on Parade prgrams, a Guidebook from '39 (First Ed and not the HC which lists "all" the sculpture on site etc...), the Gelertner - a book of fiction as far as I am concered with its share of errors.

This was most disturbing - under "Misc' they have an average visit described in terms of a costed list - Entrance (.75), a Guidebook (.25), a Sarg map (.25)- and the rest are all attractions in the Amusement Zone!- no mention of the Theme Exhibit cost or the T&P Program!!! (I think it safe to assume they are not aware there was a charge to see the T&P or a Souvenir Program from the most important exhibit at the entire Fair because if they were aware that would mean they chose to leave it out, which makes no sense at all). Very poor research and leaving out the T&P and only including things such as Living Magazine Covers and the Crystal Palace is not a "fair" assesment of what the Fair experience was composed of and offers a low opinion of the people who attended it - no understanding of any of this is demonstrated at all.

MB

Joey - what do you say to all of this? I understand you must clip corners, but you have clipped so many you are left with something that only barely resembles the Fair in the most superficial of ways. I understand this is all volunteer work, but why the lack of accurate information? Most all of what has been discussed in available on the net or in books.

MB

edited for grammar and bad coding

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I think you guys are being a bit harsh. The beauty of something built in software is that it can be changed. If something is too short or too tall or not the perfect color all of that can be fixed. Plus, I would think it's better to get people interested in a generally correct fair than nothing at all. Let's face it, most of the visitors won't even notice these sort of things. Unless there was something completely wrong I would think the site could be a work in progress and constantly updated, just like most of the Internet is. You seem to expect them to get it all right on the first shot. Maybe you're not getting and replies to your feedback as they've been scared off. I hope not, as you will have lost your chance to get these things fixed over time.

Bill

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If something's done correctly the first time there's no need for corrections. I'm sorry but accuracy is paramount.

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Hi Bill,

I disagree. I can not and will not argue for any level of mediocrity.

Paul M. Van Dort has been studying this Fair and engaging in research on this Fair for nearly 9 years and he couldn't tell a DuPont exterior photograph from a GE interior photograph. That is bad. He and his experts, with what must be decades of combined experience, did not know what a jack o'lantern on a Perisphere means. Not a good sign. The Sundial was really 80 feet TALL? Really?

Everyone makes errors, both big and small, but having them occur consistently is another thing. Experiencing difficulty distinguishing the 1939 Westinghouse Tower from the 1940 Westinghouse Tower, after 8 years of research and having acess to a team of experts, is a problem. Not seeing a huge difference in height between a rendering and a photograph is a problem. Not including the cost of entering the Trylon and Perisphere, the single most important thing at the Fair, in a list of average Fair costs when one does include the Living Magazine Covers admission is a problem Not knowing there even was a Perisphere Program is a problem.

Sure, one can adjust the height or color of a tower or the extent of the pavement and more, but now having read more of the site, and seeing no mention of Focal Exhibits or many/any of the wondrous things that truly make this THE Fair is scary, considering what is promised and promoted. One can not "show the importance" of something if they don't even know what it is or take the time to find out.

It seems more has been bitten off than can be chewed. Quality and facts are all too often what is spit into the trash.

MB

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Hi all.

Eric, I respect your viewpoints. We are all under very busy work schedules, and some details get overlooked. In the case of Westinghouse, Paul is working off from various sources, and has limited time to work on the project. As time gœs by, we will be adding more detail into our builds. Most of the textures that we could use are actually in Second Life (The Virtual World were RG spun off from) and we are uploading them as we are able to. I have the most building experience in our group, and therefore have a vast supply of textures for use. Most of us are able to create our own textures, but again, this must conform into our schedules.

As for the Trylon and Perisphere, our builder is from the Netherlands, and has limited time to allow for our project, but is committed as the rest of us. We are aware of some errors on the bridge, and are attempting to fix them in compliance with RG standards. This means that we have to allow some extra space for the Avatar sizes and hight (average avatar hight is around 7.5 feet, whereas most fair-gœrs would be around 6 feet) as well as space for the camera that follows each one, a few feet back and above the avatars head. The size of the Perisphere is, to my knowledge, baised off of the 180 foot diameter, and the trylon's width is 92.8 feet and 700 ft tall. These were calculations that were made before my arrival to the project, and as such I have no knowledge of their origins. Same gœs for the separation of the two. The grassy base problem has been pointed out (by me) and has been replaced by the asphalt texture we are going to use for our recreation. This is the area that will know will be just as popular as its real-life counterpart, and we are trying our best to make it the most accurate as possible.

Its difficult for us to come across dimensions, and colour pictures as well as other good quality images, especially when we are all amateurs at the fair. I know that you, Eric, have amassed a great wealth of information about the fair, as you have mentioned your thousands of slide images and knowledge. If you are willing to help us in-world to try to make the fair as accurate as possible, please do. We need as much help as we can get, especially professional assistance.

As for the mention of the fairs demolition we must remember that we will be visiting a recreation of the fair, an event that happened 70 years ago. As such, we know what has happened since the fair closed, and it wouldn't be right to let visitors leave without knowing the aftermath of the great buildings of the fair, or even the subsequent Worlds Fair that occurred 25 ears later. It will not be a huge description, simply a history of Flushing Meadows from 1941-2009, focusing in on the UN's presence, the 1964-5 Worlds Fair, and the arrival of the US open. These are all directaly conencted to the fair, and we feel they need to be included. We would also focus on how the technology presented at the fair affected our current lives today, which will also be more in-depth in the respective pavillions.

The project will take years to complete, and in that course of time we hope to get as much information as we can. Consider what we have now as a rough draft, that will be tweaked or even remade in the years until the re-opening of the Fair. Just keep in mind that we are a small group, with limited access to historical information from 70 years ago, many of which has been lost to Time.

Many thanks for pointing these flaws out, and in due course they will be corrected. I hope that, when the recreation is finally done, it will be the most accurate we are able to achieve, with the help, tools, and resources that we have.

Regards, Jœy

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If anyone has dimensions of anything, wether it be pavillions, foutains or the Theme Centre, please be willing to share them. We want to make this recreation as close to the original as possible, but there are some people who obousily have more knowledge than us, and thats when we must help each other. :)

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Hello Joey,

there is an issue of U.S. Steel magazine that has a lot of information on the Theme Center and its construction. I will try and find the Issue number for you. As I mentioned the Trylon was closer to 610', not 700'. Mr. Van Dort's actually mentions the correct "610'" foot height at his site - where your project is located.. There is some information in the QM catalog as well as other sources. There is the blueprint posted by Yadda Yadda graciously lent from John Pender I linked you to. If you use the search engine in here you will find a good bit of info and leads.

I think Mr. Van Dort's site relied heavily on the guidebook though - you really can't use that as a basis any for accurate or productive discussion of what was indeed built or what went on, beyond helping to identify the odd image or exhibit - the same with the Official Souvenir Book.

I am not among those with the most accurate information regarding the size of these structures, as careful reading of old posts show. I just enjoy color slides and restoring them - although the rough numbers I gave you fo the Theme Center - 180' Perisphere width, 610' Trylon height, 93' Trylon width at base, 65" for the height of the Observation Platform and 18 Feet width for the Helicline - are about correct.

While I fully admire your goal, I do not have the free time to work on your project, other than to post sporadically here and here.

Best,

Eric

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Hi Joey,

here is a quick scan of the Westinghouse Pavilion at night to show the basic colour scheme most often photographed.

ptuWESTINGOUSE1939cEL2005.jpg

Westinghouse Electric and Manufacturing Company 1939 N.Y.W.F. © EKL Image Collection

Best,

Eric

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Hi Joey,

here is a quick scan of the Westinghouse Pavilion at night to show the basic colour scheme most often photographed.

ptuWESTINGOUSE1939cEL2005.jpg

Westinghouse Electric and Manufacturing Company 1939 N.Y.W.F. © EKL Image Collection

Best,

Eric

Thanks Eric, I notified Paul and he has made the appropriate changes to the Tower. We appreciate the help!

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Hi Joey,

That looks much better. Glad I could help, but I will raise a point I raised once before - what lighting is being used? This tower looked nothing like this in the daytime, but was obviously more dynamic at night. Just the light from under the stairs is magnificent. For example, look at DuPont and that wonderful arrangement of lab equipment. In early 1939 it was, by day, a very plain light grey and white. In 1940 it was painted in reds, yellows and so on. But only at night, in either year, did the thing become so active and interesting. I recall I suggested to Paul that a night version of the Fair would allow more room for error, plenty of shadows for the unknowns and also offer the most active visual experience in terms of color. Of course, it would not be the best way to show volume (the size of the Fair), but one could have (I guess) active blinking lights/moving water on structures etc. I see GE and the Corona Gates - when I have time I will list some changes (the GE bolt never appears crooked to my memory and lost some orbital elements by 1940). The NCR Register is still missing a few terminal periods in the name of the building as shown and a dark rectangle to the left of the keys. Also, watch the platform for Motoman as it was altered before 1940 even started. Also, there may have been trees planted in the GE pool in little circular areas round the edge made of the same aqua blue tile. - this was 1939 or 1940 and I can't recall which. I'll try to see if I can look at some photographs.

Best,

Eric

PS - "Support columns were covered with mirrors and a ring of fountains surrounded the base to give the illusion the Perishpere was floating. As shown here, at first the illusion didn't work, then additional fountains were added and pressure increased, which achieved the desired goal. (right)" - this needs to be reversed. The fountains were lowered because of damage to the exterior surface of the T&P - same with the painted plaster Moods of Time, which needed supports added in 1940. Even the Sundial and Astronomer started looking pretty shabby before the first season ended. The effect worked fine as intended - I have a set of slides from early May 1939 that show a very different looking Theme Center and Mall and a few fleeting moments on a YouTube video also shows this area but in motion - an amazing sight - the mist floating off the jets under the Moods...the whole thing, T7P and all, gels in a way not recordable with slides or transferrable with words.

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