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Bogframe

An Observation

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I have noticed that over the last year, the general tone of this board has taken a decidedly nasty turn. I refuse to point fingers and name names; those who have been guilty of all the sniping and ugliness know who they are and what they have done.

People, before the name change, this was known as Peace Through Understanding. By and large, that is exactly what this board was, and why I enjoyed coming here on a daily basis. I'm sad to say that I don't feel that way anymore. I don't know why some of you were drawn here, but in my case it was to keep the memory of my childhood visits to the 1964/65 New York World's Fair alive in my head, and to hear the experience of others who shared it; and we had that!

Now, however, it seems that every thread I read has someone jumping all over someone else for no apparent reason than to start conflict. I don't need this.

I'm going to take a month-long break from PTU and hope that when I return, this board will again reflect that wonderful ideal,

Peace Through Understanding

Good day and good luck,

Boggy

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1.00

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For what it's worth the community is what we make of it so if you're not here participating it doesn't help.

Unfortunately school and work have kept me from being as active as I would like with the community.

Still, the community has always been good about managing itself... especially compared with other message boards.

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Additionally, steps have been taken to stop some of this, including forced time outs for some people. I do hope people will stay with us. It's tough knowing when to stop a conversation or suspend a member, as what bothers me may not bother other people, so I'm reluctant to be very heavy handed and slam doors on people, as I know the other moderators are. Plus, at times I come back to the board after a few hours away for family and work and can't believe what has gone on, so while I might take action then some damage has been done.

I suggest that if a post bothers anyone they click on the "Report" button to get it to the moderator team's attention as soon as possible. Believe me, none of us like the discord more than anyone else.

Thanks as ever to the many people who add so much to the forum.

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I agree with Marc and Bill. There is no need to give this brief blow-up more majesty than it deserves, which is none. Most of the interchanges here are civil and even fun. In addition, IMHO the best way to deal with flame artists is to ignore them. They get bored quickly if there is no one to goad into a response.

I have noted elsewhere the earthy wisdom of Cyrus Ching, who developed the Federal Mediation Service during the Truman Administration: "I learned early in my life never to wrestle with a pig; you get dirty and the pig enjoys it!"

I would also like to think Marc, Bill, Randy and their compatriots for their service to the board. We may not agree with everything they do but I think they get it right most of the time. Let's double their salaries! biggrin.gif

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Wow, I have been away for awhile from the board. Doing a little lurking now and then. My daughters graduated college the last few weekends and lots of other events. Now that we have the new board I have had trouble figuring out what is new and what is old content. And my quick little visits haven't allowed for much reading due to my confusion. I am saddened to hear that there is turmoil again on the board. I haven't read any of the offending threads, but it seems like there are two camps here and it comes to a head when we want to get together at FMCP. UGH!! Regardless of the drama, Specialbunny and I had a grand old time last year in the heat and humidity. It was a nice turn out. And we met some awesome people. Watching Terrie and Curtis smile as we gathered around to buy copies of their DVD was great! I still remember Terrie's dress..none of the men noticed it's WF connection at first!! It was a very memorable day.

I agree with Boggy- Peace Thru Understanding People!! And now that we can give reputation points to postings let's do it. I agree with Bill- use the report button if it's clearly out of control. But don't forget a little bit of a lively discussion and different points of view can be healthy for a forum. As long as there is respect and caring for our members.

So I hate to think that people are leaving. I am not sure that is the way to resolve issues either, but I understand sometimes it helps when you leave and get a breath of fresh air.

Think hard before you leave, think hard before you lower yourself to tantruming as well and as hard as the immature. Think of why you did come here for the first time. And remember how much effort people are making on all of our behalfs by keeping this forum open to us all.

And for those of you who enjoy causing trouble for no reason but to stir things up..you have your own playgrounds why bother ours.

/ Nancy

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...and now that we can give reputation points to postings let's do it. I agree with Bill- use the report button if it's clearly out of control. But don't forget a little bit of a lively discussion and different points of view can be healthy for a forum. As long as there is respect and caring for our members.

And so far you've collected 5 points! Way to go!

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And so far you've collected 5 points! Way to go!

I feel like shaking my head and growling with dread like Lurch from the Addams Family.

Manage Friends? Manage Ignored Users?

Are they really options on this new Board? Do those words have any business being used together by grown ups? You mean I can select some member and render his posts invisible? I think Bill Clinton and his Through the Looking Glass, "words mean what I want them to mean," attitude has triumphed. "Manage" friends? We should be lucky to have one.

Is this the World of Tomorrow the WFs predicted? Hell, let's cut to the chase and go right to show trials and public executions. Start with despicable cattiness...

1

I am appalled by this "Reputation 'feature'" .

Instead of being judged by our words we are now to be judged by what anonymous people imagine of our personalities. Imagine a new member reading a post he thought was interesting, then upon viewing a Reputation score, makes a mental note to discount not only what he at first enjoyed reading but be prejudiced against every subsequent post by the same individual. Then he'll pile on his own negative comments to be part of the in-group.

Such puerile antics poison the well and assume "guilty until proven innocent."

I understand some browsers don't support Reputation. Lucky you!

What sort of person relishes the opportunity to anonymously, without explanation, justification or consequences, drag others through mud?

Here's what will happen. People who know and like each other will 'plus' each other's posts. Eventually those with neutral ratings will feel at best inhibited and at worst unwelcome, and will disappear along with their unique input. Those with negatives will feel hounded, persecuted and shunned like the Amish. It's a Small World After All!

2

I find Facebook utterly worthless. Inanimate objects have Facebook pages. I rest my case. Such connectivity is of zero advantage.

3

But Facebook looks as useful as the Salk vaccine when compared to Twitter.

It takes me longer to log on than it takes to read an answer to the question "What are you doing now?" I don't have an assistant and publicist to read and tweet for me. I only have time for people thoughtful enough to write more than can fit in 140 characters, unless five of them spell and punctuate, "FIRE!" , and I am in a crowded theater.

Older people have been behind the curve on internet innovations. The internet itself, Flickr, and infinitely useful technologies like cloud computing, appeared on our plates full blown leaving us feel out of touch. I fear this taught us not to be left behind when the next big thing comes along so we jumped on the Facebook and Twitter bandwagons without due critical analysis. Namely, "Is this of actual value to adults?"

Facebook, Twitter and this Reputation "feature" pander to the lowest aspects of human interaction. They invite the clique-building intrigues and betrayals of Survivor, and insinuate ballot box stuffing American Idol scams into the world of ideas and helpfulness that is PTU. In short, they are regressions to not innocent childhood but the worst playground cruelties. One click to malicious, contrived, aggression and grudge settling.

The only reason these instant reviews exist is because the people making them don't linger and the technology hasn't been around long enough to show the inevitable consequences of the bad feelings engendered. As with Twit and Face, their inanity will be clear once the novelty wears off and we'll regard them with the same puzzlement as that tattoo we don't remember getting after the party... "What were we thinking?"

World's Fairs showcase the best of human nature. These features enable the worst.

I know you guys do the best you can in the interest of the board for all members, and the tech required is unknown to me, and I thank you for that. But in this case... "Ohhhh, Mr. Addams....."

Now I'm gonna stamp my feet and hold my breath!

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Manage Friends? Manage Ignored Users?

Are they really options on this new Board?

These are not new features and have been part of IP.Board for a few years. Imagine a community with thousands of active members and you may see why this may be useful. Being able to have a quick list of friends you regularly communicate with and easily ignore trolls would be desirable.

I am appalled by this "Reputation 'feature'" .

Instead of being judged by our words we are now to be judged by what anonymous people imagine of our personalities. Imagine a new member reading a post he thought was interesting, then upon viewing a Reputation score, makes a mental note to discount not only what he at first enjoyed reading but be prejudiced against every subsequent post by the same individual. Then he'll pile on his own negative comments to be part of the in-group.

This feature is meant to push high-quality content to the surface. Much like Digg.com. Again, it may only be useful for larger communities to help illuminate the good stuff.

I find Facebook utterly worthless. Inanimate objects have Facebook pages. I rest my case. Such connectivity is of zero advantage...

...Older people have been behind the curve on internet innovations. The internet itself, Flickr, and infinitely useful technologies like cloud computing, appeared on our plates full blown leaving us feel out of touch. I fear this taught us not to be left behind when the next big thing comes along so we jumped on the Facebook and Twitter bandwagons without due critical analysis. Namely, "Is this of actual value to adults?"

We'll just have to disagree on this. I now use my Facebook login to access the community and I know several people, my mom included, who wouldn't appreciate being called inanimate objects. Anything that helps bring people to the community is a good thing. Personally Facebook has helped connect my family and friends and we have communicated more through it in the last year than we had using phone and email in the last ten years.

Facebook, Twitter and this Reputation "feature" pander to the lowest aspects of human interaction. They invite the clique-building intrigues and betrayals of Survivor, and insinuate ballot box stuffing American Idol scams into the world of ideas and helpfulness that is PTU. In short, they are regressions to not innocent childhood but the worst playground cruelties. One click to malicious, contrived, aggression and grudge settling.

I agree it's a possibility. Any system can be used for good or evil. The reputation system could be used exactly as you imagine and in a community as small as ours there may not be a need to help illuminate high quality content. As it is we've had enough intrigues and betrayals. ;)

World's Fairs showcase the best of human nature. These features enable the worst.

Including the human/ethnic zoos. Those were especially the best. ;)

I know you guys do the best you can in the interest of the board for all members, and the tech required is unknown to me, and I thank you for that. But in this case... "Ohhhh, Mr. Addams....."

Now I'm gonna stamp my feet and hold my breath!

I appreciate your point of view and will always welcome it. It's always good to question things.

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Can something like "Reputation" be turned off if a majority don't like it?

Yup, unlike previous versions of IP.Board most features in version 3 can easily be turned off.

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You will notice the settings have been changed to emphasize post quality. The points are no longer displayed on the user profile.

The other settings are showing the positive button only, the negative button only or off completely.

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Whew! I can breathe again! Thanks Marc, I knew you would have a great answer!

PTU is the only BB I read. When I recently bought a car or when I have a computer question I visit other forums and blogs and feel like I'm walking through the mean streets of a foreign shanty town at midnight.

When the PTU page swings open I say, "Honey I'm home! You don't know what it's like out there!"

Your reply reminds me how spoiled I am to read only a couple dozen of the same reliable posters, some of whom apparently drive boss cars(!), consistently posting pertinent and interesting text and photos on this relatively small BB. It's easy to forget that PTU is not the way of the WWW world. This site is exceptional with exceptional participants.

I appreciate your efforts toward keeping it that way. That business about bogus human memberships from a certain country infiltrating the board, I'd like to know more about! I don't see how they think they can make money here.

Marc, I'm sure your mom is an honorable woman. Say hello for me! I agree that she would not appreciate and deserves better than to be on the same level as inanimate objects.

Nonetheless inanimate objects do have Facebook pages:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Queens-NY/New-York-State-Pavillion/43531861273

(Why don't you son-up and give mom her very own full-on website?)

I don't want to agree to disagree on the value of Facebook. I WANT to find it useful! I WANT to be told what I'm missing!

So. Like. You get this Facebook page.... You post a photo. Write text. And people log on and... see, this is where the concept loses me!

My childhood friend was "friended" on his Facebook page by a mutual childhood friend of ours. They had had zero contact despite still living in the same apartments they grew up in, five short NYC blocks apart, with the same phone numbers as when we were Cub Scouts together in the 1960s.

Since their single Facebook contact, they don't call or visit each other any more than they did in the last 50 years. So I'm at a loss to understand Facebook as anything other than providing an illusion of contact. They experimented with a new toy. It worked. Now what? You "friended" me by leaving your photo on my page. Will you secure my valuables if I am incapacitated? Mail my rent check? Is "friend" the right word for something so superficial and devoid of responsibility?

Is Facebook not very exclusive or did the cat walk across the keyboard? Did dad leave the computer on?

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2231217605

My days are dwindling and I have only so many hours in each one, more of which are consumed by something other than optional activities like web surfing.

Like how the first sentence of a book should grab the reader's attention, a new app has to give me a reason to change my habits mighty quick for me to adopt it.

It's easy to say something is useful because you use it. But like the concept of "opportunity cost" in Economics, "use" is not justification. I'm ready to embrace my Facebook page when it gives me something I want besides divulging personal info to strangers.

I think mine might be a "generation gap" issue. My folks told me not to talk to strangers.

Thanks for working on the board, Marc. I appreciate all your efforts.

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xl5er is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO right on target with his "walking through a foreign shanty town at midnight" and "generation gap" assessments of some BBs. I've participated in chatrooms at MSN, AOL and other places for several years and have noticed a generation gap, albeit a little different than xl5er's experience, in the way people behave at these sites. Those of my generation (57 years old if that helps) tend to use the "telephone etiquette" that our parents taught us while others of a younger generation sometimes act like they were raised by wolves in the wild. I guess the anonimity of the whole online chat experience is at least partly to blame. Anybody else out there have similar experiences?

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Ok well, I'll put my month long break on hold for a while, this thread is getting interesting.

Incidentally, General Zod from Superman II has a facebook page.

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Hi Jason,

Zod. I see. Is that page of his based on "the planet Houseton" or the moon? ;)

I have never seen a Facebook page, but I think I killed a twitter with a newspaper the other day. It is very difficult to properly and effectively communicate with someone using 0's and 1's. Rather impersonal. It is also hard to know who you are dealing with. I recall in one liner group there was a member who joined and stated her age was 27 - after a few posts, and a lot of trouble, it became known she was in no way what she claimed. The other day I got correspondence from someone I believed was an adult. I now believe they are a youngish teenager. Had I known this, my responses would have a 180 from what was seen. I would have been encouraging and full of ideas, as I am with all other young writers and artists I know. How to tell? How to ask?

MB

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This is a quick reply for xl5er on Facebook and Twitter.

I did not use either of these services until about a year ago. I had accounts on both because part of my job is researching new ways to do outreach with graduate students and that audience group is big into both Facebook and Twitter.

Facebook happened in a strange way. My friends and family started finding me and friending me over the service. At first I ignored them because it had been setup as a work account and I didn't like Facebook but after a while I gave in and started using it. There is a lot of noise on the service but it has made it very easy to see what people I care about are up to.

One of the most difficult features of either service to communicate to non Facebook and Twitter users is the status message (the short blurb of text where you tell everyone you're eating a sandwich) it seems trivial but in a way it's nice to know these things. Think of them as what happens between the emails and phone calls. Over time people I don't see every day or friends and family that live far away can get to know me. They see details of my life they may not have known.

Twitter became very useful at the last business conference I attended (full of webby and tech people). You can let people know where you are, what panel you're attending, what you're thinking at the moment. With Twitter messages you can include the at-sign (@) with a text tag... so the conference I was at was South by Southwest (SXSW) and I was interested in higher education so I would @tag my tweets with @sxswed and anyone searching for that would find my comments or questions. It made finding lunch companions really easy. I would share photos and links with the @sxsw tag so anyone could find them.

Both of these services require a new kind of ettiquette. With a phone call or email we feel obligated to listen/read and respond. The volume of tweets/facebook information is so great you just have to listen to what you want and respond if you like. You know who is important to you at any given time and what is important. If a friend posts that a family member has died you would respond differently than if they said they had just eaten a sandwich.

It's not for everyone and it's difficult until it clicks for you. It's hard to understand what crowd-based communication can do for you until it's happening to you. Think of the guy who tweeted he was in an Egytian jail from his cell phone. All of his friends saw it and started working on a solution.

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I guess I am out of it a bit. I was not aware there was discord and I am not familiar with a "reputation" feature on this board. I am glad because I would not use it if I knew how to do so.

I appreciate so many of the posters and their insights into the NYWF (both of them) and other fairs as well. I greatly appreciate those who created and who maintain this site. There is so much junk on the internet. This site is quality. I am grateful that it is here.

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I have never seen a Facebook page, but I think I killed a twitter with a newspaper the other day. It is very difficult to properly and effectively communicate with someone using 0's and 1's. Rather impersonal. It is also hard to know who you are dealing with. I recall in one liner group there was a member who joined and stated her age was 27 - after a few posts, and a lot of trouble, it became known she was in no way what she claimed. The other day I got correspondence from someone I believed was an adult. I now believe they are a youngish teenager. Had I known this, my responses would have a 180 from what was seen. I would have been encouraging and full of ideas, as I am with all other young writers and artists I know. How to tell? How to ask?

idog.jpg

You bring up an interesting point and show the need for tools like the reputation system. There is a big movement toward authenticity on the internet. It's one reason why I use my real name here on the community. I don't wear a mask when I leave the house and I don't wear one when interacting on the web. New members visiting our community don't know us and tools like the reputation system are meant to help people get up to speed. You can imagine what a help this would be for a community with a few thousand active members. Just recently you posted about someone wondering if you were a trustworthy seller; a positive reputation score could have helped. Members of our community may never meet in person and people come and go. While some here have found the reputation system distasteful there is a need for such tools in the absence of the face-to-face, real life cues we rely upon every day.

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Hi Marc,

yes, a funny cartoon. But I was actually speaking of something a little closer to home - like here at PTU.

"Just recently you posted about someone wondering if you were a trustworthy seller; a positive reputation score could have helped."

I dunno, my "reputation" while I had one was well in the negatives!

I must be living on "old time" - I never really wondered who was eating what, or who was where at any given moment. "The volume of tweets/facebook information is so great you just have to listen to what you want and respond if you like." - what does this say about the content? Just thinking aloud. It is just a lot of stuff I guess I don't want, for myself. It is like working with color - oversaturation removes all nuance. I again quote Ralph Kramden - "I don't want any of this, none of that, and most of all, most of all, I don't want to hear anything about buying a new TV set!" If my resistance to "change" is a sign of disfunctionality, then so be it.

Eric

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Hi Marc,

"The volume of tweets/facebook information is so great you just have to listen to what you want and respond if you like." - what does this say about the content?

I again quote Ralph Kramden - "I don't want any of this, none of that, and most of all, most of all, I don't want to hear anything about buying a new TV set!" If my resistance to "change" is a sign of disfunctionality, then so be it.

Eric

You AGAIN quote Ralph Kramden?? See? This is really the BB I want to be involved with! Not only do the participants quote Ralph Kramden, but do so with measurable frequency! I only wish I was there for the first time!

I wanted to follow up with meaningful words about how I agree with you about the "content" quality being a deciding factor but I'm gonna be laughing too hard for a while.

Besides, in a few minutes the four horsemen of the apocalypse will be galloping through my living room courtesy of Conan O'Brien taking over the Tonight Show reins. I want to watch the abomination and say a prayer for Johnny before I say sayonara to popular culture once and for all.

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Let me first apologize for my lack of appearance on this board. I have been working hard to finish my undergraduate degree, and I just started Graduate School!! AHH!!!!

It's sad to hear that things are still going awry, and I hope that they resolve themselves soon.

I would like to weigh in on facebook and the other social networking sites.

I guess being a "young one" on this board, I've had a face book for almost five years now. It's addicting... but it also is really silly too. I have used it less and less, and more for the free picture hosting than anything else. Facebook has seriously gone downhill since they opened it up to those who aren't college students (no offence)... and it is turning more and more into "MySpace" than anything. I do agree with Xl5er when he says that it is stupid when inanimate objects have profiles. Though I can openly admit to friending "Roast Beef" back abut a year ago.

Twitter on the other hand? Blows my mind. I have no idea why that is popular, and frankly, it is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. BUT i do see the appeal.

I lost my thought, so that's all I'll say.

~Jess

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