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scrap metal - the worlds last great ocean liners


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#16 Maverick

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 09:15 AM

Maverick,

Although I've never beenon a REAL cruise ship, I do find this fascinating. I'm into all kinds of preservation, so count me in! My experience has been mostly with buildings, but I hate to see anything lost forever.

My only cruise trips have been on the Viking Line between Sweden and Finland back in the late 70's. They are basically fancy overgrown car ferries, but the crossings are about 20 hrs. And I do spend a LOT of time on the steamships going back and forth to Nantucket (OK, that doesn't really count...)



Ahhhh, another Massh**e Just kidding... yeah, I finally decided to just go to the Vinyard from now on because the trip is so much less intense, although I love Nantucket. I have lots of scans of Nantucket circa 1959 if you are interested. Incidentally, one of my favorite shipwrecks of all time is near Nantucket, the Andrea Doria. She was replaced by the Leonardo Da Vinci, (burned and sank). and the Michealangelo and Rafaello (both scrapped). Like buildings, no two liners are alike, or have the same personality. So each one lost is a very sad matter. There are almost none left. The United States is only a shell at this point. Stripped of all her decor. Do you think the Independence in Boston sounds like a good fit?? My sister knows someone who gave me a (major) contact at the Boston Harbor redevelopment board. He did the Aquarium project, but the only problem is I am very intimidated to call him and propose this idea, having as little experience as I do in this type of endeavor. I also emailed one of the worlds most prominent maritime historians/ship buffs who responded that he can possibly help me find investors to get this project going. The main obstactle, obviously would be where to put an ocean liner in Boston!!! Buying the vessel should be (relatively) cheap, especially if it is bound for the breakers... which there are strong indications will be happening soon.


This should pique your interest:

<a href="http://www.ssmaritime.com/ss-independence-constitution.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ssmaritim...itution.htm</a>

#17 Mary Ellen

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 09:28 AM

Great pictures. I believe Mike is right about that ramp from the Lincoln Tunnel to the Port Authority Bus Terminal. Cars used to be able to park at Port Authority but they closed it after the 1st WTC attack.

I took the NY Waterway Ferry to NYC for my office Christmas party and I think the United States Line pier is still there.

I saw the QM2 when it came on its maiden voyage it berthed up by the Intrepid (which is at Pier 86 near 46th or 47th Street) an amazing sight.

The Normandie met its demise in NY harbor. I heard that a church in Brooklyn has the grand entry doors from the Normandie installed at its entrance.

I have always been interested in the Titantic since I read "A night to Remember" as a kid. The Cameron movie blew interest in the ship to a ridiculous level. Why are ships so interesting?

I would love to take a trip to see them work on the United States. It is close to the Battleship New Jersey as well. Maybe a road trip is in order.

#18 Bill Cotter

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 09:33 AM

NY7 was the major Long Lines center that connected NY Telco to New England for long distance calls. There were other connections to the rest of the AT&T network, but the odds were that if you were calling anywhere in New England it was going through that building. It's funny, though, now that I think of it, that most of what I worked on were transcontinental circuits. Basically, if people were complaining about noise on a call to say San Francisco, I would call a tech there and we would then pick a city in the middle of that particular circuit. Let's say St. Louis. We would then have the St. Louis tech break the connection and see if the noise was NYC-St. Louis or St. Louis-SF. If it was the former I would thank the SF tech then find a city between NYC and St. Louis and start the process again. Time consuming but it helped pay for college.

I remember one day when a construction site in New Jersey took out the primary AND backup circuits to New England, which ran through two concrete encased conduits (so yes, we did have cables over to NJ). The place lit up like the proverbial Christmas tree. It wasn't long, though, before we had routed traffic all over the place, so a call from NYC to Boston was probably going NYC-Chicago-Toronto-Boston. Much of this had to be done manually but they had well defined procedures that were well understood. Good old Ma Bell.

There were other centers in NYC as well, and I remember a friend working at an ancient NY Telco one around 50th street? It was unreal, still had step-by-step switches that were very old and VERY noisy. AT&T did have something big in the Canal Street area but I never had anything to do with that.

One memory of my time there was accidentally causing a strike that shut down the union operations for the Northeast for 3 days. Have to detail that incident some time!

Thanks for the correction on the tunnel - a peril of too late at night after too hard a day.

#19 magikbilly

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 10:22 AM

Hi All,

I did not know there were so many liner collectors here. Here are some links to a small bit of my Mauretania collection posted online - have a look

http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discu...html?1102396724

http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/cgi-b...6937&page=93337

http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discu...html?1127535537

Best,
magikbilly

Here is an image from my collection; it is posted at one of the links above but there are limitations there so I can post it larger here:

Posted Image
Mauretania being completed in the Swan Fitting Out Basin, taken from a General Tyne Ferry. The Covered Launch Shed, Covered Building Berths, Platers and Joiners are to the right of Mauretania. Wallsend, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Original panoramic photograph, mid 1907 EL Image Collection

#20 Maverick

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 11:14 AM

Bill, in that third picture of the United States outbound from NYC, it looks like the Independence or Constitution (American Export Lines) is docked on the other side of the pier from where the US was berthed. The Independence and the United States, the two ships in this picture are ironically the only two US ocean liners left in the world today as far as I know. (Like I said before, the Independence, affectionately called the "Indy" is the only one still operable). The ship heading inbound to the left of the picture, if I didnt know this was '59 I would say is Italian Line's Leonardo Da Vinci, (Burned/sank/scrapped 1980). Although I am pretty sure that the Da Vinci was put into service in 1960, having been built as a replacement for the lost Andrea Doria. Hmmmm.....

Great pix, thanks for sharing!!

#21 Mary Ellen

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 11:15 AM

magikbilly: Thanks for those great pictures. The Mauretania looks very similar to the Titanic. Triple screw and 4 stacks. When I was a member of the Titanic Historical Society years ago, a member died and bequeathed a copy of a research book he did to all members. It detailed the recovery and burial of the victims. I misplaced it for a while and found it again last year. A strange topic but very interesting.

#22 Randy Treadway

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 11:56 AM

Question from a landlubber:

Modern marine diesel ocean liner engines run on diesel fuel, right?

Originally steam engines on ships ran on coal, and a few on wood, although the latter probably didn't last long.

But those steam turbines that originally outfitted the QE2 and other ships of the 50's and 60's-
what kind of fuel did they run on? The same diesel fuel that marine diesel engines consume?


"Is that purple smoke comin' out of the funnels? What are they smokin' down there anyway?"
Posted Image

#23 Maverick

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 12:19 PM

From cruisecritic.com:

"In 1987, QE2 was re-engined. Her trouble-prone, bulk oil guzzling steam turbines were removed and replaced with diesels. The improvements in fuel efficiency and reliability ensured the ship's survival."

#24 Randy Treadway

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 12:32 PM

Fastest speed (from the 'net)

The Blue Riband of the North Atlantic is the most prestigious steaming record in the world and 1998 marks the 160th anniversary of the 8.03 knot, 18 days, 14 hours, 22 minute record set by SIRIUS in April 1838. This crossing, together with the successful record breaking arrival in New York one day later by GREAT WESTERN (8.66 knots), created great public interest in shipping and a quest, by operators, for transatlantic supremacy. By gentleman's agreement, a number of shipping magnates decided that the passenger vessel logging the fastest transatlantic crossing would be honored with the privilege of flying a blue ribbon from her mast.

Over the next 100 years numerous attempts were made to gain the honor of being the holder of the Blue Riband. To encourage innovation in passenger transport and formalize Blue Riband arrangements, English Parliamentarian, Harold Hales, commissioned and donated a four foot high priceless trophy, known as the Hales Trophy, in 1934. The Trophy is presented to the "Ship which shall for the time being have crossed the Atlantic Ocean at the highest average speed".
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Great liners such as REX, NORMANDIE, QUEEN MARY and SS UNITED STATES have all held the Hales Trophy since its inception. The SS UNITED STATES won the Blue Riband on its maiden voyage in 1952, averaging 35.59 knots. That record was broken in 1990 by the Incat Australia built HOVERSPEED GREAT BRITAIN, establishing the record at 36.65 knots.
Posted Image
Hoverspeed Great Britain

In June 1998, the CATALONIA raised the speed to 38.85 knots. Each of its four Caterpillar 3618 diesel engines drives a transom mounted waterjet.
Posted Image

Posted Image


In July 1998, the CAT-LINK V set a new record speed of 39.897 knots. The last three record holders were built by Incat Australia. While Cat-Link V utilizies Russian diesel engines, the basic large catemeran diesel/waterjet technology is the same as the previous two record holders, with continual development of hull design. All three of these are motor vehicle-carrying ferries.
Posted Image
Cat-Link V

#25 Mike Kraus

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 02:10 PM

I believe the post-coal steam turbine liners ran on "bunker oil", a cruder form of diesel.

OT, in 1950, my parents on their honeymoon to Europe, went via Queen Mary over, Queen Elizabeth back.

Yep, everyone is gaga over the Titanic tragedy, but they forget the three greatest semi-civilian naval tragedies in history. All in the same year, and the same sea.
Quiz:
Can you name them?

#26 magikbilly

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 02:27 PM

Fastest speed (from the 'net)

The Blue Riband of the North Atlantic is the most prestigious steaming record in the world and 1998 marks the 160th anniversary of the 8.03 knot, 18 days, 14 hours, 22 minute record set by SIRIUS in April 1838. This crossing, together with the successful record breaking arrival in New York one day later by GREAT WESTERN (8.66 knots), created great public interest in shipping and a quest, by operators, for transatlantic supremacy. By gentleman's agreement, a number of shipping magnates decided that the passenger vessel logging the fastest transatlantic crossing would be honored with the privilege of flying a blue ribbon from her mast.

Over the next 100 years numerous attempts were made to gain the honor of being the holder of the Blue Riband. To encourage innovation in passenger transport and formalize Blue Riband arrangements, English Parliamentarian, Harold Hales, commissioned and donated a four foot high priceless trophy, known as the Hales Trophy, in 1934. The Trophy is presented to the "Ship which shall for the time being have crossed the Atlantic Ocean at the highest average speed".
Posted Image
Great liners such as REX, NORMANDIE, QUEEN MARY and SS UNITED STATES have all held the Hales Trophy since its inception. The SS UNITED STATES won the Blue Riband on its maiden voyage in 1952, averaging 35.59 knots. That record was broken in 1990 by the Incat Australia built HOVERSPEED GREAT BRITAIN, establishing the record at 36.65 knots.


They forget to mention that Mauretania held the Blue Riband for an unparalelled 22 years! (I don't know much about liners after 1940 or so...) Fastest liner on the ocean from 1907/1909 to 1929 (depending which record - east or west bound). That is an astonishing achievement. Despite more than twenty years service on the North Atlantic, she was still a very ship even into the 1930's. She left Havana for New York on July 19th, 1933, averaging 27.78 knots the first day out. The next day, on the 112-mile stretch between Carysfort Reef Lighthouse and Juniper Inlet Lighthouse (and with a bit of help from the Gulf Stream), she averaged an astounding 32 knots! She was designed for 25. This year marks the 70th anniversary of her demolition at Rosyth - the last section was hauled ashore in August 1936. And yes, she was coal fueled until her conversion to oil before returning to service in 1922. And Mary Ellen - thanks for nice comments about my photographs - yep, Titanic was triple screw - but Maretania (built several years earlier) was actually quadruple screw with 4 bladed props which rendered her much, much faster than either Titanic or Olympic could ever have been - Mauretania and sister Lusitania were designed for possible war service and had a very narrow beam.

Best,
Billy

#27 Maverick

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 02:42 PM

I believe the post-coal steam turbine liners ran on "bunker oil", a cruder form of diesel.

OT, in 1950, my parents on their honeymoon to Europe, went via Queen Mary over, Queen Elizabeth back.

Yep, everyone is gaga over the Titanic tragedy, but they forget the three greatest semi-civilian naval tragedies in history. All in the same year, and the same sea.
Quiz:
Can you name them?


Great question, and I would love the answer. A few wrecks come to mind... Empress of Ireland, Lusitania, The Republic, and then there was an excursion steamer out of NYC about 100 years ago... but I don't know the answer.

Here are some more of my scans, SS America circa 1955, sister ship to the United States. A real classy ship who some believe was scuttled on purpose for insurance money. Compare my photos with the photos of the ship today at this site: <a href="http://www.ss-australis.com/enter.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ss-austra...m/enter.htm</a>
Click on "Australis Today" on the left side of the page. YOU WON'T BELIEVE YOUR EYES!!!


Billy, your collection is awesome. I was on the QE2 in '99 and made friends with the social director of the ship who was also a ship enthusiast. We spent much of the cruise talking ships, and I asked her if she could sail on any one ship, which would it be? Her answer was Mauretania.

Here are some more scans from my collection, The Queen Elizabeth leaving NYC for Europe, 1964...

#28 Randy Treadway

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 03:15 PM

They forget to mention that Mauretania held the Blue Riband for an unparalelled 22 years!


#2 longest span, behind only United States 38 years ('52 to '90).

Although some people would argue that U.S.'s record time span should be only 34 years.

Richard Branson tried for the record in 1985 in Challenger, but his ship sank just 138 miles from the British coast!
He tried again the following year (1986) in Challenger II, an apparently successful effort. But when he applied for the trophy the Hales' trustees refused to award it to him because his boat did not have a commercial maritime purpose and he had stopped to refuel three times.
It would seem that the 'commercial maritime purpose' argument might have merit since the original charter stated something about 'passenger service'.
But I'm told that refueling isn't mentioned anywhere in the original prize charter, and it was 'invented' by the trustees AFTER the Branson run, just to spite him. One would think that the time penalty to stop or slow to refuel would be enough of a consideration all by itself and you wouldn't need to bother to have it as a prize rule.
Anyway, Branson was so pissed that he abandoned nautical-speed record chasing completely and moved on to long-distance record-chasing for balloon flight.

By the way, since United States was laid up for much of the time it was the 'holder' of the trophy, one might wonder where the trophy was displayed (many of the previous trophy holders displayed it on board the ship).
It was displayed at the U.S. Maritime Museum in Long Island from 1979 until 1990, when they had to surrender it to the proud new record holder Hoverspeed Great Britain. The museum's foundation and the maritime trade protested the claim on the grounds that the ferry was not a trans-Atlantic liner, as it did not have overnight accommodations for passengers. In the end, however, to avoid a costly legal battle, the museum relinquished the trophy.

There is conflicting information about a record & prize associated with a voyage by Gentry Eagle in 1989. It was a high speed motor yacht which beat the fastest time & speed recorded, and apparently did so without refueling. But there is no way that it could be considered a 'passenger service' vessel.
Some accounts say that Mr. Gentry was handed the Blue Riband trophy in a ceremony by none other than Richard Branson himself (which seems an unlikely scenario!!), while many other Blue Riband winner lists don't even show Gentry Eagle at all.
Want to buy it? It's only 4 million smackeroonies, and I'll bet they take PayPal!
<a href="http://www.gentryeagle.com/mail.html" target="_blank">http://www.gentryeag...m/mail.html</a>

#29 magikbilly

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 05:31 PM

"Empress of Ireland, Lusitania, The Republic, and then there was an excursion steamer out of NYC about 100 years ago..."

Empress of Ireland 1914, Lusitania 1915, Republic 1909, General Slocum 1904... he said "semi-civialian" - I am going to guess the three German vessels in the Baltic in 1945 - the Wilhelm Gustloff (5,700 to 7,000 dead), the General Steuben (3,500 dead) and the Goya (7,000).

Billy

PS - your'e right of course Randy re Riband - as I said, my interest in liners in limited to the two Cunarders and drops off rapidly after 1940 or so. I much prefer the "Old Lady of the Atlantic".

#30 Randy Treadway

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 06:48 PM

I have to admit that although United States held the record for almost 40 years, it wasn't because it was that much ahead of its time, it was because the transatlantic 'competition' for the honor ended, and shipping lines didn't care to pursue it any more. Undoubtedly the technology existed for a shipbuilder to produce a vessel in the late 50's or early 60's which could have seriously threatened the record, but the economics were no longer there to justify building such a ship.
So record longevity comparisons between Mauritania and United States aren't really a fair comparison. Mauritania managed to hold onto the record for a long time even while many rivals were trying very hard to beat it.




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